Mendele: Yiddish literature and language ____________________________________________________ Contents of Vol. 15.019 July 12, 2005 1) Soviet orthography (Lucas Bruyn) 2) parkh revisited (Lucas Bruyn) 3) parkh revisited (Dovid Braun) 4) Yiddish in Los Angeles (Marty Green) 5) Yiddish in Los Angeles (Noyekh Miller) 6) a rusish lidl (Miryem-Khaye Seigel) 1)---------------------------------------------------- Date: July 11, 2005 Subject: Re: Soviet orthography I would like to thank both Bob Rothstein and Dovid Braun for their comments on my general remarks on Soviet orthography, I agree with both writers, especially with Bob Rothstein's second remark. I should have put that more precisely. Dovid Braun thinks my remarks quite incorrect. I may remind him that the original question was about the date of introduction of the system. I added my note only to indicate that the spelling of non-L.K. words in the Soviet system is more similar to YIVO than, for instance, to the spelling used in Harkavy's dictionary. In The Mendele Review Vol. 01.012 you will find Sholem-Aleykhem's _Motl Peyse dem Khazns_ Part I, chapters 7 and 8, romanized from the Der Emes, Melukhe Farlag edition. A reader used to YIVO will have no difficulties reading a text in Soviet orthography, despite the existing differences. Lucas Bruyn 2)---------------------------------------------------- Date: July 11, 2005 Subject: Re: parkh revisted Since I introduced parkh to the list (as an example of how far you get with popular etymology), I feel responsible for this affliction and would like to give Felicitas Payk an answer to his itching question whether:suffixes "es" and "im" were both used as plural suffixes, or whether "parkhes" denotes the infection and "parkhim" is referred to those infected. I am quite sure the answer is, that both plurals can be used with the same meaning, though parkhes is the usual plural, given in dictionaries. Other examples of a plural -im for non loshn-koydesh words are: nar-naronim and dokter-doktoyrim, commented on in earlier issues of the list. The difference is, that these words have no alternative plural on -en. Lucas Bruyn 3)---------------------------------------------------- Date: July 12, 2005 Subject: _parkhes_ vs. "parkhim" Re the query by Felicitas Payk: The plural *in Yiddish* of _parkh_ is _parkhes_. The text where you saw the -im plural was a Hebrew text; the use of _parkh_ was as a Yiddish "loan" to the Hebrew, so the regular Hebrew (typically masculine) plural morpheme was added to the Yiddish word. An analogy: the German word _Kindergarten_ is used in English (viz., _kindergarten_, although the second element of the compound is typically Anglicized so that it is pronounced like the English _garden_). The plural, *in English*, is _kindergartens_ and not _Kinderga"rtner_. Dovid Braun Cambridge, MA 4)---------------------------------------------------- Date: July 19, 2005 Subject: Re: Yiddish in Los Angeles With regards to the spelling of "avada" on YiddishkaytLA's logo, I don't find their justification to be as unreasonable as Noyekh Miller does. It is hard to deny that one of the problems with YIVO transcription is the tendency for English speakers to misread the internal vowel sounds when a word ends with "e". The argument is whether one should nevertheless use the YIVO spelling in any case. Here are some reasons why we should not feel bound to use the Yivo transcription system when writing in English: 1. Outside of academia, it has never really caught on. If the Jerusalem Post (for example) uses the word "khutspe" in an article, they usually spell it chutzpah. 2. Yiddish has an official spelling system, and it uses Yiddish (Hebrew) letters. A standard system for transcriptions into Roman letters surely does not have the same status as an official spelling system. 3. If we grant the YIVO transcription system the status of an _official_ spelling system, then we have two official systems. If we can have two, why not three or four? In Harkavy's 1897 dictionary, he was able to say without embarrasment that "Yiddish has two spelling systems: a phonetic and an etymological...". There are in some situations very good reasons for wanting to use an etymological system. 4. I have no argument with the YIVO system. I don't see why it shouldn't co-exist with other systems. Other languages also have dual systems, for example Chinese which has a modern and a traditional system. For most of our history, multiple systems have coexisted in Yiddish. Marty Green 5)---------------------------------------------------- Date: July 12, 2005 Subject: Re: Yiddish in Los Angeles I'm afraid that I made a huge error in my last post on Yiddishkaytla and I want to rectify it as soon as possible. By confusing long with short vowels, I completely turned around the clear meaning of their note to me. Thus, while 'avada' is an innovation in spelling it isn't what I'd feared, namely a change in pronunciation. I'm terribly sorry about this and apologize to all concerned. Noyekh Miller 6)---------------------------------------------------- Date: July 12, 2005 Subject: Re: a rusish lidl In response to Shaye Doris's inquiry, see pages 167-168 in the anthology "Lider fun dor tsu dor" (Songs of Generations) by Yosl Mlotek z"l and Chana Mlotek. This song, titled "Shpil, gitar!" , is prefaced with a note explaining that it is a translation of a Russian song "Chto mnie gore" by Samuil Iakolevich Pokrass (1894-1939). The refrain printed in this version: tsu vos zhe zorgn farn morgn fil dem bekher on mit vayn heyb dem bekher hekher, hekher in dem vayn fargeyt der payn The three verses printed in this version: shpil, gutar, biz mayn tsar vet oyfhern zoln platsn di strunes on a tsol. kh'vil mit vayn un shampayn shiker vern un fargesn vos geven iz a mol di tsigayner, zey ruen un shlofn un me hert shoyn keyn lidl nisht meyn nor kol-zman s'iz faran vayn a tropn iz dos lebn un der toyt shoyn alts eyns alt un shvakh, on a dakhm iz farblibn a tsigayner, a held, gants aleyn ferdlekh ganvenen, meydlekh fil libl er flegt zingen dos lid azoy sheyn. Miryem-Khaye Seigel ______________________________________________________ End of Mendele Vol. 15.019 Please do not use the "reply" key when writing to Mendele. Instead, choose one of these two: Messages for posting on Mendele Personal and other messages to the shamosim